Two links I intended to input didn’t come through, re Magdalen laundry equivalents and Catholic Church child abuse scandals in Pennsylvania- see below-
Good as always. As an "Irish-American" myself (2nd generation) I've often mused on this. My own most recent Irish forebears came to the US in the 1950s. I wonder if that has a lot to do with it. The vast majority of Americans of Irish descent "left" Ireland when Ireland was different; in a sense, certain Irish folkways were passed down here in the US even when they were dying in Ireland itself. As Ireland (it seems to me, as an outside observer) becomes another multi-ethnic outpost of global liberalism, many of her children here are clinging to that old Irish identity effectively in opposition to the global liberalism which has become the new Irish identity. (With small differences, to be sure; we love Israel here, you love Palestine there, but everyone loves a good pride parade).
Fascinating piece. I really enjoy your writing - thank you, Conor.
As a fellow “Irish-American” to Biden (although more than 50 years younger) I think Irish-Americans’ Irish identity is more about an inherent desire for a connection to their ancestors than a connection to a bygone Ireland (or Irish people) itself. From my limited reading, it seems that many Irish pundits (like the one you quoted) get this wrong.
I’ve been thinking about Michael Brendan Dougherty’s book. Most Americans have a strong sense of patriotism, and a great respect for our founding and founders. But because we are a nation of immigrants, so many of us have no ancestral connection to that intense and meaningful founding period. I think this leads us to find meaning in where “home” was for our ancestors - our own origin stories.
It will be interesting to see if and how this connection to Ireland changes in future generations of Americans.
Fascinating. A lot to unpack, or rather, a lot to try to repack for a man whose spent his boyhood and youth in Chicago. A lot of ideas, memories and emotions are now all out on the floor and I have barely a clue trying to figure out how to tidy them up. Irishness and Catholicism got pretty jumbled up in my life. I have Irish roots, but they are Protestant and Catholic roots, but they Lithuanian. Irish Catholicism, as a boy, mostly meant Irish Catholic boys who liked to beat on public school boys as we crossed paths on the way home from our separate schools. Yet the Lithuanian part was working class and had more in common with the Irish public power structures in the city My grandparents and great uncles were mostly in unions, some were firemen, a job that along with policeman or ward-boss makes even a Lithuanian-American, an honorary Irish-American. Yet as Catholics, the Lithuanians hated the heavily Irish clergy, as "new Catholics" compared with the people of St. Patrick we were probably still a bit too pagan to be trusted and the priests, monsignors and Archbishops too harsh. The Irish were in charge, and when in Dublin-on-Lake-Michigan ... well you had to try and fit in. But everybody drank in Irish corner bars if only to bitch about the Irish. So yes, my Irish-American experience wasn't really Irish, but it also was, just turned into a strange new thing in new soil and in contact with other exiles. I thank you for launching this little mental journey.
Great insight. With America being independent of Britain, the 'Irish Catholic American' identity is more about 'anti-English' than being 'Catholic'. Irish American getting melancholy about their Irish Catholic identity probably has a lot to do with the lost heyday when Irish Americans dominated in liberal political power in the mid-20th century (Ethnic America: A History by Thomas Sowell).
Not long ago I read about an Irish American writer's experience as a kid growing up in Pennsylvania, which also seems like a lost identity.
To what extent is Biden 'Catholic'? The modern Democratic Party is closer to the ever neurotic Fintan when it comes to its attitude towards Catholicism. Maybe Joe, as some believe, visited Ireland as a stunt to impress his Democrat base but I doubt it. Outside his own demographic being an Irish Catholic is meaningless. It was a personal visit by Biden. He even went to Knock and met the priest that gave his son the Last Rites for God's sake. Joe is a strange one, in just about every public position he is in opposition to the Church, only recently for example he declared he will do his best to uphold the right to chose, for women's health or whatever they're calling it these days. Essentially he's guaranteed to fight to make abortion as freely available as possible. It doesn't matter where you stand on that particular issue, it's a peculiar position to take for someone who's 'devoutly Catholic'. Even Jed Bartlet struggled with his conscience over the issue.
In an ideal world, politics is boring. I suppose its best when religion is a bit like that too. No fundamentalists or evangelicism, (note lower case) just hatch, match and dispatch, hope in hard times and a shared not-too-strict moral order for stability. Many normal people are that type of Catholic, afaics. Population structure matters too, millennials are plentiful and more homogenous than later generations, we grew up with the scandals and Internet atheists, dismissing the heavy Catholicism of previous generations. But we're approaching middle age; ill health, death of parents and wild teenage children are in our future. A modest low key return to religiosity of some sort wouldn't be unexpected.
Two links I intended to input didn’t come through, re Magdalen laundry equivalents and Catholic Church child abuse scandals in Pennsylvania- see below-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalen_Society_of_Philadelphia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury_investigation_of_Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_in_Pennsylvania
Good as always. As an "Irish-American" myself (2nd generation) I've often mused on this. My own most recent Irish forebears came to the US in the 1950s. I wonder if that has a lot to do with it. The vast majority of Americans of Irish descent "left" Ireland when Ireland was different; in a sense, certain Irish folkways were passed down here in the US even when they were dying in Ireland itself. As Ireland (it seems to me, as an outside observer) becomes another multi-ethnic outpost of global liberalism, many of her children here are clinging to that old Irish identity effectively in opposition to the global liberalism which has become the new Irish identity. (With small differences, to be sure; we love Israel here, you love Palestine there, but everyone loves a good pride parade).
Also what Joe means by it and what you and fintan mean by it (past or present) are very different
Fascinating piece. I really enjoy your writing - thank you, Conor.
As a fellow “Irish-American” to Biden (although more than 50 years younger) I think Irish-Americans’ Irish identity is more about an inherent desire for a connection to their ancestors than a connection to a bygone Ireland (or Irish people) itself. From my limited reading, it seems that many Irish pundits (like the one you quoted) get this wrong.
I’ve been thinking about Michael Brendan Dougherty’s book. Most Americans have a strong sense of patriotism, and a great respect for our founding and founders. But because we are a nation of immigrants, so many of us have no ancestral connection to that intense and meaningful founding period. I think this leads us to find meaning in where “home” was for our ancestors - our own origin stories.
It will be interesting to see if and how this connection to Ireland changes in future generations of Americans.
Fascinating. A lot to unpack, or rather, a lot to try to repack for a man whose spent his boyhood and youth in Chicago. A lot of ideas, memories and emotions are now all out on the floor and I have barely a clue trying to figure out how to tidy them up. Irishness and Catholicism got pretty jumbled up in my life. I have Irish roots, but they are Protestant and Catholic roots, but they Lithuanian. Irish Catholicism, as a boy, mostly meant Irish Catholic boys who liked to beat on public school boys as we crossed paths on the way home from our separate schools. Yet the Lithuanian part was working class and had more in common with the Irish public power structures in the city My grandparents and great uncles were mostly in unions, some were firemen, a job that along with policeman or ward-boss makes even a Lithuanian-American, an honorary Irish-American. Yet as Catholics, the Lithuanians hated the heavily Irish clergy, as "new Catholics" compared with the people of St. Patrick we were probably still a bit too pagan to be trusted and the priests, monsignors and Archbishops too harsh. The Irish were in charge, and when in Dublin-on-Lake-Michigan ... well you had to try and fit in. But everybody drank in Irish corner bars if only to bitch about the Irish. So yes, my Irish-American experience wasn't really Irish, but it also was, just turned into a strange new thing in new soil and in contact with other exiles. I thank you for launching this little mental journey.
Reading Fintan makes me never want to visit Ireland ever again.
Great insight. With America being independent of Britain, the 'Irish Catholic American' identity is more about 'anti-English' than being 'Catholic'. Irish American getting melancholy about their Irish Catholic identity probably has a lot to do with the lost heyday when Irish Americans dominated in liberal political power in the mid-20th century (Ethnic America: A History by Thomas Sowell).
Not long ago I read about an Irish American writer's experience as a kid growing up in Pennsylvania, which also seems like a lost identity.
https://www.city-journal.org/article/this-st-patricks-day
To what extent is Biden 'Catholic'? The modern Democratic Party is closer to the ever neurotic Fintan when it comes to its attitude towards Catholicism. Maybe Joe, as some believe, visited Ireland as a stunt to impress his Democrat base but I doubt it. Outside his own demographic being an Irish Catholic is meaningless. It was a personal visit by Biden. He even went to Knock and met the priest that gave his son the Last Rites for God's sake. Joe is a strange one, in just about every public position he is in opposition to the Church, only recently for example he declared he will do his best to uphold the right to chose, for women's health or whatever they're calling it these days. Essentially he's guaranteed to fight to make abortion as freely available as possible. It doesn't matter where you stand on that particular issue, it's a peculiar position to take for someone who's 'devoutly Catholic'. Even Jed Bartlet struggled with his conscience over the issue.
In an ideal world, politics is boring. I suppose its best when religion is a bit like that too. No fundamentalists or evangelicism, (note lower case) just hatch, match and dispatch, hope in hard times and a shared not-too-strict moral order for stability. Many normal people are that type of Catholic, afaics. Population structure matters too, millennials are plentiful and more homogenous than later generations, we grew up with the scandals and Internet atheists, dismissing the heavy Catholicism of previous generations. But we're approaching middle age; ill health, death of parents and wild teenage children are in our future. A modest low key return to religiosity of some sort wouldn't be unexpected.